WANTED – A psychiatric diagnosis of Nazi holocaust denial

Roger Tucker:

February 8th, 2013 at 2:00 am

Alan, I don’t find your argument convincing. The problem is that the common usage of the term “holocaust denier,” which you seem to be applying, is called begging the question, similar to an oxymoron. It’s like saying a “20th Century denier.” The implication is that it’s an either/or proposition, the “holocaust” happened or it didn’t. But I am unaware of any so-called deniers denying that “there is irrefutable evidence that Jews were shot, hanged, burned, injected and starved to death and, also, that many died from diseases that were only terminal because of the conditions of their incarceration.” We “deniers” merely question several assertions that are built into the orthodox story – that:

1. Six million jews were killed (or is it ‘died’ – they never specify). The fly in the ointment is that it is all too convenient a number – I’m sure you’ve seen the newspaper article dating from 1919 that six million jews were in danger. I’ll send you a copy if you’re not familiar with it. Others say that the number is cabalistic, and still others say that the number dates back to the 19th Century, somebody’s estimate of how many jews there were in Europe. The evidence for the number accurately approximating those who were killed (or died?) is unconvincing.

2. X number of jews were killed in gas chambers. I find the evidence unconvincing that there were any gas chambers – on the contrary.

3. There was some sort of official plan, authorized at the highest level of the Nazi authorities, to exterminate all the jews in Europe. Again, there is no evidence that comes anywhere near being convincing.

The subject is important because there would be no Israel if it weren’t for the general acceptance of the official holocaust narrative. If historians are able to cast sufficient doubt on these elements of this story then whatever justification there has been for the existence of this bizarre “state” will disappear – and good riddance. Whatever happened happened. I think that insulting some very serious and courageous historians who are trying to apply the tools of historiography to a vexing but crucial question is beneath you.

ontogram:

February 8th, 2013 at 3:39 am

Alan — holocaust deniers are crazy people. It’s pretty simple, really.

Sure Jews were murdered in great numbers. 15 million Chinese dies at Japanese hands and about 20 million Soviets. As you have said, the numbers don’t matter — this deaths were, in part, racist.

It is galling that US taxpayers fund a US Museum of the Holocaust and not a museum of American slavery or the genocide against native Americans, something relevant to American identity. Just galling.

And let’s smooth things over here: The holocaust was hi-jacked into a product of an industry designed to extort payments from certain countries in the West and not others. The history of this extortion is hair-raising and nauseating. Interestingly, as of course Finkelstein points out, the US was never sued or threatened by the holocaust lawyers even though the US also had assets belonging to exterminated Jews. And, finally, holocaust survivors themselves never saw much of the extorted fortune most of was split between lawyers and Jewish organizations mostly in the US. Some of these organizations are still churning out they despicable stew of sanctimonious outrage about racism where Jews are concerned and positive Zionist racism where Jews are also concerned. The hypocrisy is so thick, Western liberalism is permanently stuck in it.

ontogram:

February 8th, 2013 at 3:41 am

(I apologize for all the missing words and errors of referents — I get excited and just let it go.)

Alan Hart and the Jewish Dark Art of Gatekeeping | Ziopedia:

February 8th, 2013 at 4:27 am

[...] I heard from Alan was the submission of a new article that he had just posted on his site titled ‘WANTED – A psychiatric diagnosis of Nazi holocaust denial’ suggesting in best Judeo-Bolshevik tradition that Holocaust revisionists needed psychiatric [...]

Ros:

February 8th, 2013 at 10:20 am

When people are imprisoned for denying the holocaust, David Irving for one and when the figures just don’t add up 2,240,000 Jews in occupied Europe before the war, 6,000,000 killed and 4,500,000 claiming money as holocaust survivors, Red Cross figures for total work camp deaths 241,000. World Jewish almanac before the war 15,250,000 after the war 15,750,000. One does ask questions and when this culminates in the birth of Israel and The holocaust of the Palestinians. I feel everyone should questian everything we are told as “fact. Please feel free to sneer at my spelling and grammar

Joe Ortiz:

February 8th, 2013 at 10:49 am

Alan, I have a great deal of respect and admiration for you, and always enjoy your fair-minded articles. I also feel for you that critics exist who try to peg you as a shill for Zionists. I find that hard to believe.

However, I do have concern for the many scholars who are involved in research concerning the Holocaust. I have no doubt whatsoever that Jews (and other ethnic groups) were persecuted, tortured and killed by the Nazi regime in WWll. What sets me back as the instantaneous response from Zionists who immediately start calling these folks “Anti-Semitic” for asking innocuous questions, especially as concerns the amount of Jews who were persecuted, tortured, gassed or shot and killed.

There are myriad of web sites that question the specific amount put forth by Zionists (or various Jewish groups), and each of these are branded on Jewish web sites as anti-Semitic, merely for asking the question, people who are not denying the Holocaust, but would like more information as how these figures were arrived at. Why is this immediate (anti-Semitic) retort and accusation made when a person merely asks for this information. If those who arrived at the figure of six million Jews were killed are convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt, I myself would be more than anxious and ready to flaunt evidence to any skeptics to allay any doubts whatsoever.

In my current studies on how many Mexican nationals were killed during the Spanish American War, where some people claim over 40,000 were killed. I have gone to many departments in Mexico to gather such evidence. No one so far has attacked me for seeking this data. But, to even ask anyone about how the figure of six million was arrived at, they are immediately attacked and vilified as holocaust deniers. There are even some countries that already have legislated laws forbidding anyone to even ask. Can you explain why this is so?

Joe Ortiz, Author
The End Times Passover
Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation
Saved? What Do You Mean Saved?

Bob:

February 8th, 2013 at 11:33 am

Interesting points here. It really does not matter about the way Jews and others met their deaths in concentration camps. Disease struck the Afrikaners (Boers) in the British concentration camps in the Boer War.
Yes I always thought the current so called “Nazi” movement professing Holocaust Denial have done Zionism a great favour. Interesting too, the Nakba denial of many Jews who also run into the Zionist trap.
If we did not have such widespead human fallibility Zionism may not even have ever got off the ground never mind corrupted our political and economic systems.
I was surprised by the responses to Alan’s last Article but I feel the acceptance of tyrrany and tyrrany in one’s own name is a product of conditioning by whatever means.
Both Nakba Denial and Holocaust Denial need to be looked at in this way.

Wendy Morgan:

February 8th, 2013 at 12:07 pm

For anyone trying to understand why fellow human beings do what they do in both committing atrocities and denying them, I’d strongly recommend Stanley Cohen’s ‘States of Denial’, which should be better known and deserves to be his legacy as much as the concept of ‘moral panic’ is. He died very recently.

Ros:

February 8th, 2013 at 1:26 pm

As I previously commented it actually comes down to doing the math. 2,240,000. Jews in occupied Europe 6,000,000 dead 4, 500,000 holocaust survivers claiming recompense from Germany ,Red Cross figures name total dead at concentration camps 240,000 all figures aprox. Irving , Zyndal inprisoned for holocaust denial David Cole threatened until he recanted, many “experiences” proved to be false. The fact that we are not allowed to question what we are told all add up to something pretty smelly in the woodwork if you think about it

Ros:

February 8th, 2013 at 1:42 pm

It seems you block any opinion other than your own

Rehmat:

February 8th, 2013 at 2:29 pm

Alan – Not even world’s best psychiatrist will be able to convince a brainwashed Zionist to question Israeli narrative of “the holocaust”.

For example, Netanyahu’s psychiarist Moshe Yaton, who committed suicide two years ago and left a note for the Israeli prime minister: “You sucked the life right out of me. I can’t take anymore”.

Former Israeli cabinet minister Shulamit Aloni had admitted in an interview at ‘Democracy Now!’ – that holocaust is a trick the pro-Israeli groups play when someone criticizes Israel or Jews in Europe. In America, they change holocaust with antisemitism – when someone criticize Israel.

In December 2012, Israeli foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman, in an effort to invoke western anti-Jewish guilt, criticized the Western nations for not joining Israel-US-Canada- Czech Republic against Palestinian Authority’s (PA) victory at UN General Assembly last month. Lieberman compared European nations’ action with their antisemitic attitude during late 1930s when they did not save German Jews from Nazis.

“Once again, Europe has ignored calls for Israel’s destruction. We have already seen this at the end of 1930s and the begining of 1940s when Europe knew what was happening in the concentration camps and didn’t act. Europe has slapped itself in the face,” Lieberman told Israel public radio.

http://rehmat1.com/2012/12/12/israel-invokes-europes-holocaust-guilt/

Peter Presland:

February 8th, 2013 at 5:38 pm

But why would anybody want to deny the Nazi holocaust when there really is so much irrefutable evidence that many Jews were exterminated?

Because the the holocaust as you define it (and with which most people you defame as ‘holocaust deniers’ would anyway agree), is NOT the one promoted by The Holocaust industry. That’s why.

And why do you find it necessary to use that insulting epithet at all – let alone no fewer than seven times in a single short piece?

I am NOT a ‘holocaust denier’; I am an historical revisionist; by which I mean someone who believes that ALL historical events should remain open to evidence based question and NOT become ossified as unquestionable holy writ.

The plain facts of the matter are that in the Western world today there are just two areas of historiography that are ‘no-go’ for anyone unwilling to risk imprisonment of career suicide. They are:

1. The allegedly unique evil of Third Reich Germany and
2. “The Holocaust” (with capitals).

In historical terms, it ought to be self-evident that neither is unique or uniquely evil, but to say as much is to court a prison sentence in much of Western Europe and career suicide in the rest. Why is that do you suppose? Why should people engaging in research activity that is obligatory in all other areas of historiography, be criminalised or have their careers destroyed in these two? THAT is the only ‘unique’ thing about both and anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty will want to know precisely why that is so.

You may console yourself with your clever no-capitals stratagem but that is a cop out pure and simple.

Your position is analgous to Noam Chomsky on 9/11. You no doubt mean well and indeed have impressive credentials on the detailed history of the post-WWII Zionist State; but to suggest that we know all we need to know about both of the above is beyond absurd.

manny:

February 8th, 2013 at 5:44 pm

It is the obsession with bringing up the holocaust issue that needs psychiatrict examination… so many real issues are utterly more urgent than spend time on the justification for cruelty to Palestinians and the World…

Kevin Boyle:

February 8th, 2013 at 6:16 pm

Mr. Hart,
As I explained I wrote those angry lines at a time that I thought you were refusing to post my comment citing some of the strongest and most irrefutable evidence disproving the existence of human gas chambers.
Now you say that the existence of these gas chambers is neither here nor there (because, supposedly, you are not able to argue against the scientific case).
Well, blow me down!?
I am asking myself should you address the psychiatric question towards yourself.
How can you possibly be so (let’s find a polite word) DUMB.
It is the ‘human gas chamber’ element of the holocaust (and nobody I know denies that Jews were slaughtered mercilessly and wickedly, en masse, on the eastern front) that makes this genocide VERY SPECIAL.
Without it we have just another bunch of racially-motivated murders.
Nothing special.
Without this it would be an inferior genocide to the Chinese-Mao one, to the Rape of Nanking one, to the Ukranian one, to many other Soviet ones, even (if the figures were corrected) to the Irish one.
This ‘gas chamber’ lie has empowered Zionism more than any other thing(see, with an ‘m’ Alan. Why did you include that pathetic point in your article. Was it meant to make me look illiterate? [Look into it, Dr Freud]) . More than the Orthodox/banking Talmudic commitment to racial supremacy, more even, perhaps, than their limitless funds, this great lie is a superfuel that supplies the engines of the elite.
A Zionist elite that is our self-sworn enemy, if anyone cares to study their own writings.
Never mind the fact that Wall Street funded Lenin and Trotsky and that a largely Jewish Soviet leadership celebrated their new-found ascendency in Russia by exterminating 1.8 million of the Christian elite (that’s the community that gave us Tolstoy and Dostoievsky). Never mind that they burned down all the Christian churches and left the synagogues standing. Never mind that the Ukranian ‘Holdomor’ deaths were far higher than Jewish deaths in WW2 and the commanders who directed this crime were very largely Jews. Never mind that Jewish power today is in an absolute ascendency as anyone with eyes to see can easily realise. If Jews dominate the USA and the UK, and they do, then is it reasonable to wonder if the fact we live in a condition of perpetual war anything to do with them?
9/11 and 7/7 were provable crimes by the covert state, whoever these people be, against their own people in order to justify our participation in the ‘clash of civilisations’ we see going on around us.
People are incredibly intimidated by state power. Politicians and media operatives understand what can and can’t be said. Their cowardice in failing to ask even the most obvious of questions WHEN IT REALLY MATTERS is one very good reason why we are in the helpless position we find ourselves.
‘gas chambers’ is not about ordinary Jewish people whatever you or they have been brainwashed into believing, it is about giving the elite, that appears to be led by banking Jews, a free pass to do as they wish with the lives of humanity.
And what they wish to do is clear from the writings of the Talmud, the Masonic bible “Morals and Dogma” by Albert Pike and from the Protocols of Zion, a work of absolute genius that in no way could have been forged (though the Zionists who have dominated our media for more than a century [ask Lord Northcliffe] say precisely that). Well, as Mandy Rice-Davies said, “They would, wouldn’t they?”
So, Mr. Hart I make my case. I am not requiring the attention of any psychiatrist, thank you. I am merely an informed citizen who cares about truth, who has taken to heart Christ’s words “THE TRUTH WILL MAKE YOU FREE”, who wishes to expose and resist the powers-that-be that dominate our lives. Not out of jealousy or of any kind of depraved hatred, but out of visceral concern for all our futures that has been created in me by the publicly accessible information I have sought out and found.
A little more truth-seeking would do you no harm at all, Mr Hart.
If you can close your mind to the possibility that this world is in the hands of a very wicked and conspiratorial elite then you, in my opinion, are deluded. Conspiracies violate our natural instinct to trust and we all, sir, have been violated, time and time again.
I could have taken offense at your insults but saying these things, one gets used to it. At least you didn’t call me a Nazi. I am, in fact, a Christian who believes that Christ got it exactly right about the Pharisees and the ‘money changers’.
But who takes any notice of Him any more.

Auschwitz not Calvary. Right, Mr. Hart?

We must all be compelled to be Talmudists now.

Is it really a psychiatric issue if some of us disagree with you about ‘The True Significance of The Holocaust Toady’?

If so are you sure ….

ARE YOU SURE, NR HART, that it is those who have the temerity to disagree with you who are delusional?

http://kevboyle.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/77-inquest-no-one-to-blame-except.html

Rolf Schmid:

February 8th, 2013 at 6:33 pm

Dear Allan,
in my opinion, it`s a very important question if the extermination of millions of people, Jews and others, have been planned by the Nazis or not.
The existence of Gas chambers would proof it, but without serious doubts remain and must be allowed.

ontogram:

February 8th, 2013 at 6:45 pm

Peter — I think we are splitting hairs here. There are crazies who think the whole of the holocaust never ever happened and that it is all untrue. I agree that research should be open and free and that it is due to Zionism that countries have actual laws against questioning the official narrative. And I think that these shackles must be broken. The Third Reich was not unmitigated evil.

The anti-semitism of Nazi doctrine recognized implicitly the racism at the heart of Jewish life, the separateness inherent in Judaism and the “chosen” people. This of course is the great truth that Zionists and their sayanim everywhere are so touchy about. And this touchiness explains why the world is peppered with hypocritical “humanitarian” organizations watching out for any hint that this truth may become publicly scrutinized and openly discussed. The “Anti-Defamation League” which is actually in the business of defaming anyone who says anything less than laudable about “Jewishness” or Israel. Or the “Jewish Voice for Peace” which announces universalist values but responds in a tribal knee-jerk manner to criticisms of “Jewishness” with slurs of the same old “anti-semitism” charge just like its frankly Zionist sister organizations, ADL, Simon Wiesenthal Center, etc. Even the best-intended universalist humanitarian organization is damned at inception if it chooses to select for “Jewishness.”

Let’s speak plainly: There is no “Jewish tradition” of universalism or democracy. There IS a history of Jews negating their Jewish selves in the name of universals, but that is not a “Jewish” tradition. It is more likely a result of social and economic marginality throughout history, a marginality however selected by Jews. Likewise for the “only democracy in the ME.” In the full flush of Zionist victory, the scales of democratic values are gently lifted from Zionism and its true right wing militarism, a state run by the military, is revealed. And isn’t that JUST LIKE the feudal military dictatorships in the region? There is no Constitution of the State of Israel and that is not, not now decades after establishment, a mere accident. Think about it.

Every Jewish child is instructed in their “chosen-ness” and cautioned about its meaning as variously “chosen to do good things”, or “chosen to be righteous” or the “light unto…” etc. But the essential part remains “chosen-ness.” It is this which has bedeviled Jewish life everywhere in the world and throughout history. It is this “self-selection” that built ghettos just as Israel has built its wall. “Self-selection” has inspired pogroms, anti-semitism and ultimately drove Nazis to a “Final Solution.”

But I will say it clearly, and like Atzmon, as a Jew: Jewishness is obnoxiously racist and separatist, just like South Africa White Supremacism. Ask any Jew what right he has to Palestine and he will tell you that G*d gave him this land. The deed (in case one should doubt this authority) is in a book — I can barely contain my outrage — written by the Jews!

Alan is right to the point that murderous extermination and other targeted means of death was indeed inflicted upon European Jews but he would be wrong to apply the term “holocaust denier” to researchers and honest individuals stymied in their efforts to understand what actually happened — and more importantly, why in fact it happened.

I believe that the Final Solution was both an exigency of the war, as many have already indicated, and also a biological “correction” as envisioned by Hitler. At several points Hitler muses about the terrible impact of the war on the German racial “stock,” eliminating, as he suggests, the very “best.” When confronted with the issue of sheltering camp prisoners from Allied bombings, he agrees that there is something “unreasonable” in the notion that enemies should be so sheltered in camps. I think that Hitler envisioned a racial “imbalance” after the war with the best of Germany gone but with the Jews (the real enemy) relatively untouched by combat. This post War world would be skewed in favor of “the Jews” and this was unacceptable. Such a consideration, and the impossibility of emigration in wartime, closed the deal for the Final Solution. Or so I think.

Kevin Boyle:

February 8th, 2013 at 8:20 pm

Is you will not post my response to your abuse please answer this question:

Is the existence alleged ‘human gas chambers’ really neither here nor there as a holocaust issue?

Really?

You say:

Does it really matter HOW Jews were exterminated in Nazi concentration camps?

Yes it does.

If there were no human gas chambers, maybe (as the available real evidence actually shows) the vast majority of Jews in the camps were not ‘exterminated’ (in your implied sense) at all. Maybe the corpses are the consequence of typhus and, at the end of the war after we’d fire-bombed German cities flat, starvation.

Furthermore the Auschwitz ‘death books’ show more Roman Catholics (presumably Poles) dying than Jews. Why are their deaths SO, SO, SO less significant than the Jewish ones.

No Memorial Days, multiple daily news stories, nor Museums of Remembrance for them.

If you buy into the big lie you are, like most westerners, a de facto Talmudist, a worshipper of the new God “The Jewish People” (the only Orthodox God, just read the Talmud). You are complicit in unknowingly accepting the Talmudic ideology that, as this Satanic book openly states, only Jews are human [just check it out]. The rest of us are not. To simply accept the big lie makes you a practicing Zionist, whether you know it or not.

From this lie comes their power to control our the collective mind. Without ‘human gas chambers’ the awesome, cowed, hush we have all experienced at the mention of this nightmare vision would have no power over us.

The power of the Rabbis (whom Christ described as being “of Satan”) must be broken.

Surely, surely, you know that Mr Hart?

Rehmat:

February 8th, 2013 at 8:29 pm

Oliver Polak is not ashamed to tell his audience on stage that he doesn’t believe in Zionist narrative of the Holocaust; ‘Six Million Died’. Polaks, known as ”the only German Jew comedian“ has been criticized by Israel lobby group for making fun of the new Jewish religion. Polak response has always been: “I’m allowed to do that. I’m a Jew“. Sometime, Polak even has made fun of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, whose leaders have slammed Polak’s Gentile audience more than the comedian for laughing at his anti-Holocaust jokes instead of showing their guilt for what their Nazi ancestors had done to the European Jews.

All German Jews are not like Polak. With daily dose of German crimes against the Jews during the Nazi era, has kept the new German generations feeling guilty of their ancestors. They usually let the fanatic Jews insult their religion and race. For example, in the past the Jewish groups had defended German photographer Daniel Josefsohn 51, who named his dog Jesus (sic), whose Berlin studio boasts an AK-47 bearing the words “I love Jews”, and who once climbed into the garden of former house of Reichsmarshall Hermann Goering (with Jewish family roots and one of the leading Nazi-Zionist collaborators), to raise Israeli flag.

http://rehmat1.com/2012/11/20/german-jew-comedian-makes-fun-of-holocaust/

Artemis:

February 8th, 2013 at 8:31 pm

I am somewhat puzzled as to why you have written yet another piece about the Nazi holocaust. Having been born well after WWII, the persecution of Jews, Tziganes et al is for me one of many ghastly events in history, and one about which I can do nothing. I cannot help but be more affected by witnessing, today, the terrible persecution of the Palestinian people which Israel carries out with total impunity.

People who wish to disbelieve documented events such as the Nazi holocaust, or the French Revolution, or the genocide of the American Indians, and so on, have to be considered as cretins and should be ignored. Do they really warrant such attention? What dangers do they represent? None, as far as I can tell. I’m not aware of any of them having the backing of powerful organisations or wealthy lobbies or think tanks.

You say “I stand by my view that holocaust denial (and most aspects of holocaust revisionism) is evil on a par with the commissioning of the slaughter and the slaughtering itself.” You can’t be serious, Alan.

None of your business:

February 8th, 2013 at 10:20 pm

It looks like someone spent a lot of time responding Alan’s criticism of Holocaust denial and revisionism.

http://therebel.org/553603-alan-hart-and-the-jewish-dark-art-of-gatekeeping

http://therebel.org/548914-allan-hart-and-the-nazi-holocaust

Grace:

February 8th, 2013 at 10:27 pm

Mr Hart, I’m sure you’ve read “Debating the Holocaust – A New Look at Both Sides” by Thomas Dalton, Ph.D. If you haven’t, it is well worth your time. The numbers, the rest of history, IMO don’t add up to what is claimed by holocaust supporters. The book begins by looking for evidence on either side, and comes out with ALL the evidence supporting the revised version of holocaust history. Dr Dalton’s search for counter arguments (supporters of the “official” story) was met with people who remained quiet or impeached their own integrity, but nonetheless remained arm locked with their comrades in the lie, sneering back at an honest investigator. Their ploy was simple, “We’ve won if we just keep quiet.” How sad for the truth and the integrity of history. If the lie goes on for a thousand years it doesn’t make it any less of a lie. Even if there were statistically significant truths in the holocaust diatribe, it would still be tainted by all the lies that have been piled on since 1945. I agree that zionism is THE ageless evil, and most people of jewish faith are not evil, just like not all Americans are evil simply because our psychopath leaders ARE. However, there is a community who unwittingly supports the evil in both instances, by denying the truth and believing the lies of the leaders. I would opine that any person who is not cognitively impaired would, after critical consideration, warm to a revised version of “the holocaust”, which, at its center the “jew” does not reside.

Tom Mysiewicz:

February 8th, 2013 at 11:31 pm

I suggest reading my piece from several years back on Rense.com: Coexisting with the New World Religion. That’s what Alan is doing.

What does it matter if the number is 6-million or under 100,000? Imagine if a bank robbery took place and the bank owner claimed $6-million was stolen and collected from the FDIC. Subsequently, it is learned only $100,000 was stolen. Would Alan say “what does it matter how much was stolen, just that there was a robbery”??? No, for the bank owner has defrauded the nation and is a criminal, despite the fact that he himself was the victim of a crime.

We have thrown trillions of dollars at the Israeli state, brought horror and tragedy to the Palestinians and other peoples of the Mid East, bankrupted our nation on the basis of the Holocaust narrative…while legless and armless young ex-soldiers hobble around our streets. They gave their limbs and happy young lives at the altar of the 6-million Moloch. (Of course, the murder of 25-million+ Orthodox Christians at the hands of often-Jewish Bolshevik commissars is just a blip on the screen of history. Aaron Solts, Naftaly Frenkel–the father of the Gulag, Berman, Yagoda…more of the unsung mass murderers of history.)

Bringing Holocaust denial into the realm of the psychiatric is eerily reminiscent of the infamous “Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion” which advises its minions to: “Fill the jails with anti-Semetic criminals. Fill the insane asylums with anti-Semetic lunatics.”

ontogram:

February 8th, 2013 at 11:56 pm

Tom — I think you have a good point. The details of the narrative do matter and I do not think that inquiry into these matters should be outlawed anywhere or disrespected and scorned. I characterized only some true lunatics who literally see the devil himself in Jewishness. It is not the devil: It is the self-selection, the willingness to insist on “chosen-ness” or supremacy over others in all matters. This is what the libel of “anti-semitism” is really about: Controlling the dynamic so that nobody notices that it is the Jews themselves who are the racists and supremacists. The cry of “anti-semitism” is a convenient sham to misdirect attention, just like magicians do.

Jews learn to be “special,” and others also learn to be “anti-semitic.” It is two sides of the same coin. There is nothing irrational about it. So, I am sort of with you and I’m a Jew.

But it is not “trillions”, Tom, though certainly more than one trillion dollars since 1948.

It is galling that the Navy complains about losing less than $1 million a day and has to keep only one flattop in the Gulf rather than two when the US could SAVE $8 million a day simply by cutting off foreign aid to the — more wobbly than most assume — Zionist state of Israel, one third of all US foreign aid.

We should start a tax protest, withholding the $25 in taxes each American taxpayer is forced by congress to send to Israel every single year. For each Israeli, each man, woman and child, this is a gift of almost $600 a year each! I’d like that $600, too!

Tom Mysiewicz:

February 9th, 2013 at 12:29 am

Ontogram. In direct aid certainly no more than $1-trillion. However, there are the loan guarantees that are never (or seldom) repayed, military stockpiling, cost of operating U.S. fleets in close proximity, $3-trillion direct and indirect cost of Iraq war (only of benefit to Israeli strategic interests.)

Really, you should read my Rense piece if you haven’t seen it.

Zionism, in one sense, was a good idea. Jews could learn to live like others so they did not have to “shylock”–the Biblically inclined might see it as the lion learning to lie down with the lamb and “learn to chew the cud”. Unfortunately, the state was placed where it could produce the most conflict…effectively spoiling the experiment.

This is bad news for Jews who truly want to coexist. The Holocaust propaganda and Israeli 5th columnists may produce a repeat of 1930s Germany in the U.S.–for Jews will with some justification be blamed for causing national destruction or severe decline. (Recall that in newspaper ads of the early 1930s Felix Untemeyer declared economic war on Germany on behalf of ALL THE JEWS IN THE WORLD. This made Jewish civilians, in effect, enemy combatants subject to internment in event of the outbreak of war.)

Ash:

February 9th, 2013 at 12:36 am

I don’t want to get into an argument about it because ultimately these things come down to belief. Suffice to say that, despite having relatives who got caught up in the camps during that period, and despite for most of my life accepting the general story as promulgated in the media, at a certain point, having been accused of being an ‘antisemite holocaust denier’ when I questioned the whole Israel-Palestine/Arab=terrorist narrative, and not being familiar with the term ‘holocaust denier’ and finding it bizarre that someone would accuse me of something I had never once thought about, I did a bit of googling of the term which led me into about two years of study.

After which, to my reluctant surprise, I have come to the informed conclusion that the holocaust as described is propaganda. One could debate forever whether or not this is true, and how ‘holocaustianity’ functions on many levels in both Jewish and Western society, but I don’t believe I have a psychological disorder, rather an informed opinion. Yes, it could be wrong, but I ask you (for yourself) to come up with a single piece of proof of mass extermination. The Eastern front was really nasty (for all participants on all sides, including for Russian soldiers shot by their fellows in the regiments behind if they tried to retreat), and clearly there was non-kosher warfare there. But the whole extermination in the camps business – well, I just couldn’t find any evidence at all despite searching for two years. What I did find was endless examples of (later proven) lies. Lies, lies, lies.

Ultimately, if it really did happen, why so many lies?

Sorry, I ain’t buyin’!!

ontogram:

February 9th, 2013 at 12:47 am

Tom — I thought I was including all the perks.

You are not understanding another piece, though. Zionism was never, in any sense, a good idea. After thousands of years, there were not homogeneous “Jews” as a “people,” and that is the central myth of Zionism. The other part is the Jewish conceit of specialness. As long as Jews are “special” their behavior will be directed by tribal instincts and not universal instincts. Regardless of where the Zionists nested, the myth of specialness would still continue undermine one polity after another in its service. Jews active in the religion cannot be unambiguously loyal Frenchmen or Americans, even more so now that Israel exists. This is different than a German or Irish immigrant to American or a Frenchmen with some Arab genealogy. Neither of these nationals are taught that their German character or Arab character was selected by G*d almighty and that everybody else, the gentiles, are nothing. This would not be Christian or Islamic both of which are universalist. In this respect, Gilad Atzmon is right: The problem isn’t Zionism, it is “Jewishness.” The conceit of supremacy.

I am reminded of one Christian theologian who wrote something to the effect that Judaism was a terrible, little, mean religion with a local deity running back and forth across the country watching out for His people and that it should’ve disappeared long ago like so many other local tribal religions. The circumstances of my birth mean that I am a Jew, but I understand this idea: It is Judaism that is intolerant, “anti-semites” are just those who understand and act on this knowledge.

Peter D:

February 9th, 2013 at 5:04 am

Rehmat, that’s a very juicy story about Netanyahu’s shrink, but it’s a complete fiction. It’s satire, but given that people are receiving it as fact, it also qualifies as disinformation.

Thanks for your last few posts, Alan. We need reasonable people to step forward and voice their opinions on these issues, and permit a discussion to take place, otherwise the fate of the world will be left in the hands of the adult equivalent of bickering 5 year olds.

Roger Tucker:

February 9th, 2013 at 6:52 am

Calling people mentally ill for challenging the orthodoxy is an old Soviet response to opposition. The Holycause is a religion, replete with a high priesthood, an infallible dogma, its growing collection of cathedrals, and like Roman Catholicism at its most arrogant and paranoid, a Holy Inquisition.

I salute those with the guts to stand up to this juggernaut, which has the Western world in thrall. Courage in the face of overwhelming power may be impractical, but it is certainly praiseworthy.

The historical revisionists express doubt and are sent to the rack, or at least to prison – in 16 European countries. We should salute them, not slander them.

Gideon Cozens:

February 9th, 2013 at 9:00 am

Dear Alan,

Anyone who seeks to question the post-war propaganda of the victors is in need of psychiatric diagnosis (or else goes to jail). Get real.

I hesitate to call you a fool, but you most certainly have not allowed yourself to continue your self-education when it falls out of your comfort zone.

I am about ages with you and I too was indoctrinated – not to say brainwashed – from a very early age. The first booklet I remember reading was entitled “Six million died” and, of course I was appalled. Thanks to Hollywood in the main such indoctrination has continued incessantly for the next 50 years, and I never thought to question it.

Only with the events of 9/11 were my eyes opened. The lies were so blatant and so obviously concocted to serve the interests of Israel that I began to question everything.

And, lo and behold, when you actually read the documented facts and ignore the surrounding hype, the story of gas chambers and 6 million dead jews is no more believable than the supposition that Bin Laden planned and conducted the events of 9/11. You should thoroughly read all of this documentation before making further, silly but PC comments.

Perhaps I am being charitable when I suggest that you have closed your eyes to further education. Since Israel defines itself as the Jewish State, your careful tiptoeing around that fact by emphasising the (exclusive) nastiness of Zionism while carefully avoiding the outright racism and Islamophobia of Israeli (and other) jews who do not define themselves as Zionists is itself in denial.

Maybe, this piece and the last serve another agenda. One that is somewhat crawling and subservient with the aim of retaining a presence in the MSM.

Ron Johnson:

February 9th, 2013 at 1:11 pm

A Word to look up: STRAWMAN

A scarecrow erected to discourage skeptical inquiry. Scepticism is not denial. Please cite a passage of “holocaust denial” – for open discussion.

NotMyRealName:

February 9th, 2013 at 3:57 pm

I am no hero. When I finished reading Alan’s column, I was prompted to reply immediately. I held back, however, as no other comment had yet been published and I admit I was a little afraid to stand out with what I had to say.

I live in Montréal, where there is a substantial Jewish community and, among them, a cluster of Hassidic Jews who congregate in the neighborhood of Outremont. A local citizen who lives on Hutchison street, just across from a synagogue, complained several times to local authorities about double parking in the middle of the street, work being done on buildings without a permit and intercity buses coming and going in violation of municipal bylaws, but was ignored by local authorities who are very close to the Jewish community who systematically votes “en bloc” for them. The frustrated citizen documented all his allegations on a web site for which he is now being sued on the grounds that it is antisemitic. The trial is over, judgement is expected within six months.

In this context of legal terrorism I felt more than a bit reluctant to express my views about the Holocaust (capitalization intended). Having read the previous posts, I feel in good company and I will venture to publish what I had written yesterday :

« Without denying the existence of the holocaust, I think it is fair to say that it may have been greatly exaggerated to enhance the chances of a Jewish state to flourish in Palestine. What I find is that when one questions the authenticity of any “fact” relating to the Holocaust, one is labeled as antisemitic and, in some European countries, is even subject to criminal prosecutions. The simple fact that it is a criminal offence to question the Holocaust makes it suspicious. »

That’s it. I think it is sad that I felt obliged to refrain from expressing those simple thoughts in fear of possible repercussions.

Davey Wavey:

February 9th, 2013 at 10:31 pm

The thought police, the guardians of public morality have intimidated all of us. We tiptoe around even using the word “Jew” or “Israel” in any non-positive manner. It’s disgusting that laws forbid talking about the Jewish holocaust as one sees fit. Is it illegal to question the British and American involvement with slavery, a more traumatic world history? Is it illegal to discuss the Japanese assault on China and Korea? Many more deaths here.

It is just Zionist crap and everyday I at least do one thing to push back on that poison and its fifth column in the US and abroad.

Sam:

February 10th, 2013 at 4:48 am

Actually, the links you provided prove that in the dying days of the war, the Nazis failed to provide to those incarcerated in the concentration camps what they themselves did not have, not only there but in their own country too. The reports paint a picture of extreme suffering not dissimilar to what the Germans were experiencing at the time. Prior to that, the Red Cross had regular access to the camps and have never ever reported any mass extermination. I am sorry to say that you are acting like a brain-washed convert to holocaustianity.

David King:

February 10th, 2013 at 6:23 am

Well well well Alan, look at all the fun I have been missing. Thirty-three posts, wow. Is that a record for this site?

I have personally met three or four holocaust survivors. Actually the lady who lives next store is one too.

Well I don’t know much about the holocaust; only a few points. the first is that the Germans keep perfect records and know to a man how many were killed; while at the same time those involved say they are not sure of the number. That is very suspicious. I know that ersatz israel was collecting the compensation up to just 4 or so years ago. And I know that money was not going to the survivors in israel. I know when the term finished, the zionists were asking for more money.

I think what pisses me off, is firstly there are special rules or laws around the topic. That is the first thing. The second thing, is that it wasn’t just the Jews. They were probably only half of those killed by Hitler. What about some consideration for those who were not Jews?

Well Alan; what are we going to do? I read through many of the comments and you had the bejesus kicked out of you on this one. Roger Tucker took you to school in no uncertain terms. But I have an idea. I am going to give you a challenge Alan. It is going to be right up your alley. You will get some limelight, and adventure and probably make a couple of bucks out of it too. Write a book on the holocaust. Use your contacts; sniff in every corner, and go where the information takes you. Without fear or favour. Your just the man for the job.

Roger Tucker:

February 10th, 2013 at 7:21 am

First off, Alan, I must admit that my advice to see a shrink was a bit sarcastic – I hold no brief for the psychiatric profession, particularly in this day and age of pill pushing. A far better idea would be to look into meditation practice, particularly if is is imparted by someone from a good lineage, like mahayana or vajrayana buddhism, or the advaita vedanta. These are like very good, well aged wines – and in vino veritas. Fundamental, basic sanity is an open secret that merely needs to be uncovered, like a pearl, or, better yet, in the same way that an art restorer patiently and meticulously gets rid of the stains and obscurations that hide what is innately clear and brilliant. As it happens, this is a do-it-yourself project, but virtually impossible without expert guidance from someone who’s been there done that.

An example of this process is revealed in a fascinating book by Richard Forer, ‘Breakthrough: Transforming Fear into Compassion’. Perhaps you are familiar with it. Here is an excerpt from a review by Helen Thomas: “Forer who grew up in a secular, unaffiliated Jewish home, is the identical twin of a prominent member of an ultra-Orthodox sect of Judaism, and was himself a member of AIPAC, America’s Pro-Israel lobby. He knew where his allegiances lay – anything Israel did was justifiable in his mind. During the summer of 2006, Forer visited the Middle East and underwent a profound spiritual transformation. He saw destroyed villages, displacement, land confiscation, imprisonment without trial, torture, and other inhuman treatment of the Palestinians, and knew he needed to share his truth.”. Forer fervently believed for most of his life in the Zionist narrative, which you obviously don’t. However, you seem to believe just as fervently in the dogma of the Holycause, which is another complex, self-serving narrative that was essential to the birth of, and is inextricably connected to maintaining the imputed legitimacy of the Jewish State. The two myths are inseparable.

Therefore, I heartily concur with David King’s suggestion. You might even employ his approach. Consult only Jewish sources if you like, but with an open mind. See where they lead you. If any questions arise, then follow your excellent journalistic nose and go where it leads you. Like Mr. King, I have confidence in you.

BTW, although it is of no real importance, I am Jewish by birth and upbringing, and was duly bar-mitzvahed in the Conservative tradition. Uncovering the crimes, lies and self-deceptions of the current batch of unhinged tribal jews is a mitzvah I feel obliged to perform.

Horhug:

February 10th, 2013 at 10:53 am

Alan Hart seems to be playing the part of a fool. An ill informed fool to boot. “F**k science” indeed ?

Bletchley Park Decrypts

If it wasn’t for science then we wouldn’t have radio and if it wasn’t for radio then we wouldn’t have the Bletchley Park decrypts of German Concentration Camp prisoner populations for all of 1942 and January 1943 at Auschwitz and various other camps.

Perhaps Alan Hart might be convinced of the real inmate population figures contained in the “dah-di-di-dit” decodes of the British codebreakers instead ?

Therein, for all the world to see for the frist time ever, are the unadulterated fgures for Auschwitz, men, women, Jews, Poles, Politicals and Russians alike.

In the Summary reports you can read about the typhus epidemics and the measures taken to control them.

http://whatreallyhappened.info/decrypts/ww2decrypts.html

Real, primary source inmate figures from the UK archives, published for Auschwitz for the first time ever.

Figures for other concentration camps to follow soon.

Regards

Horhug

Peter Presland:

February 10th, 2013 at 10:56 am

Allow me to suggest another powerful reason why the Establishments of the former WWII Allies (principally UK, USA, USSR(RF), France and Poland) together with the subservient regimes of the vanquished nations remain complicit (not to say fanatical) in upholding “The Holocaust” narrative. It concerns the deliberate targeted killing of civilian populations; the ‘ethnic cleansing’ of German-speaking civilians from former occupied territories and the treatment of surrendering German forces following their surrender. I defy ANYONE who subscribes to the official narrative of WWII as a just war in which the allies did their best to uphold civilised values against a monstrous dictator in trying circumstances, to read about what REALLY happened to those categories of people in the closing stages of the war and its immediate aftermath, and not find it shocking almost beyond belief.

The victorious allies turn out to have been the biggest perpetrators of ‘crimes against humanity’ (as defined at the Nuremberg trials) in history. Specifically:

1. Deliberate, calculated targeting and killing of non-combatants – pure terrorism IOW. Publicly accessible targetting maps give the lie to claims that industrial infrastructure was the principal target of Bomber Command. The Germans only began their bombing of UK cities in response British bombing of German cities. The bulk of German city destruction occurred in the latter stages of the war. Allied civilian deaths from German airborn ops were @95,000; German civilian deaths from Allied air ops ten times that number.
2. Ethnic cleansing. 12 million forced from historical homes of which about 3 million were killed in the most barbaric fashion and most of the women (3-4 million) repeatedly raped.
3. deliberate killing by exposure, starvation and disease, of surrendering military personnel. German troops who surrendered to the Western Allies (ie US/UK) were herded into vast barbed wire enclosures. As a matter of deliberate policy, no shelter was provided through 2 winters; starvation rations were enforced with civilian assistance being forbidden on pain of being shot and medical attention was non-existent. The ICRC were forbidden from entering the camps. Over 1 million died from starvation/disease/exposure – ie orders of magnitude more than were killed in actual fighting. Soviet treatment of its captives was even more babaric – if that is possible.

“The Holocaust” narrative is cultivated by ostensibly non-Zionist establishments in order to keep these facts suppressed. It is useful because it requires a uniquely evil person and regime undertaking uniquely evil crimes – so that’s what we are told happened.

Churchil once said ‘history will be kind to me for I intend to write it’ – the plain fact is that, far from being uniquely evil, Adolf Hitler pales against the Churchill-Roosvelt-Stalin trio.

For a brief primer on Allied treatment of prisoners see: https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Other_Losses and links therefrom.

ontogram:

February 10th, 2013 at 7:35 pm

@Peter I looked into this matter of Allied “ethnic cleansing” just briefly as per your post. I cam across a photo of a US Soldier overseeing a vast multitude of prisoners behind wire. The caption read that there were numerous such camps along the Rhine containing 5 million German soldiers. that number, 5 million, is absurd, at that time, in that location uniquely, etc. etc. It is this kind of thing that betrays fanciful stories.

Peter Presland:

February 11th, 2013 at 8:41 am

Sorry Ontogram, but the figure is accurate. It is scrupulously detailed by James Bacque, from publicly available documents available from UK US French and Moscow (Ex-USSR) archives. Bacque has done the legwork and been crucified by Western establishments for his pains. The point is that, of those 5 million or so prisoners of the WESTERN Allies, no fewer than 1 million died from a toxic combination of brutality, exposure, starvation and disease. Extra rations and ANY shelter were forbidden by SHAEF Command (ie ultimatey Eisenhower) on pain of being shot. I strongly advise you to read James Bacques’ book ‘Other Losses’ before giving more fuel to the official Western narrative. The testimony of one of those camps guards is provided at:
https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Document:In_Eisenhower%27s_Death_Camps

Also, the ethnic cleansing I referred to had nothing to do with the camps. It concerned the 12-15 million ethnic Germans living (most for many generations) in Silesia, the Sudatenland and other points East. Almost to a man (and woman) they were brutally removed from their homes and over 3 million were killed in the process with the women suffering in the most unspeakable fashion – it was and remains the biggest ethnic cleansing operation in history by far – but how many people in the West know diddly-squat about it? Of course it does rather spoil that sanctimonious moral ‘just-war’ claim, so the reason is clear enough to those prepared to open their eyes. The stomach-churning detail can be read in “A Terrible Revenge” by Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, another author pilloried for exposing inconvenient truths to a public in denial.

john thames:

February 19th, 2013 at 12:18 am

Alan:

You are running around in circles evading the point. The point is: If the “gas chambers” and the “six million” are a hoax (they are), then what we have is a criminal and civil fraud on an unprecedented scale. That is not a forgiveable offense – nor should it be.

It will not do to argue that because Jews were unquestionably victims of a brutal war (as were others) that it makes no difference whether the number was one million or six million or that deliberate inflation and exaggeration to make one’s own group the moral martyrs of the universe makes no difference.The Jews behave as they were the only victims of the war. They were not. They also argue that their allegedly unique victimhod entitles them to do as they please in Palestine, a position which you quite correctly condemn as wrong.

My reading of the evidence is that the revisionists are right and that the six million/gas chamber story is hokum. What we have, then, is the deliberate rewriting of history to allow the Zionists to get away with anything. Your fear that the ugly truth may help revive Nazism or its equivalent is justified. But one cannot forever conceal the truth anymore than one can keep poison within the body to avoid an unpleasant upchuck. Sooner or later “Woosh!” It all comes out in a torrent.

I believe that if the Zionists have swindled the world with the biggest whopper ever told that it would be less harmful to punish the culpable now rather than wait for the explosion that will blow them all away without distinction later.Of course, it can always be argued that it already is too late. Be that as it may, we have a civil and criminal fraud of enormous proportions already on our hands. If the Jews continue to lie, and well-meaning types like you continue the cover-up, then the argument will be made that those who continue the cover-up are just as guilty as those who perpetrated it. It is called “accessory after the fact”, Alan.

Kindly post this comment and let your readers debate the merits of the position. Thank you.

Roger Tucker:

March 18th, 2013 at 10:23 pm

We should change the title of this discussion to “The Comments Section That Will Never Die.” Most of us no doubt thought that it was safely dead and buried and then – voila! – the notorious Tony Greenstein pops up. Who cares? Well, we all should, because the fundamental issues that drive this dialogue are being dissected by an unusually perceptive and aware group of people concerned with what used to be known as “the Jewish problem,” a theme that reverberates throughout human history.

What is the exact nature of ‘the problem’? It is my contention that it is not something that is unique to ‘the Jews;’ rather, it is a universal political tendency which Jewish cultural history happens to exemplify. I discuss this at greater length in my (shortish) piece entitled ‘Us vs. Them: On the Meaning of Fascism’ . Among other things, it makes it obvious how and why the ‘victims’ became the victimizers. Let me know what you think.

So who is Tony Greenstein? I, and probably no one else, would have the faintest idea who he is if he hadn’t attacked Gilad Atzmon, who, as is his wont, forthrightly counterattacked a number of times, which introduced most of us to Atzmon’s characterization of Greenstein and his ilk as ‘AZZ’s – anti-zionist zionists. Previously such people were generally referred to as ‘gatekeepers’ – Jewish progressives who defend the left flank of tribal Jewry.

Not all of them are Jewish, of course – probably the most infamous of them is Ali Abunimah, an example of Palestinians comfortably living in the West who find it convenient to follow the lead of the Jewish gatekeepers. His ‘Open Letter,’ which attempted to excommunicate Atzmon from the ranks of those who support the Palestinians, highlighted this issue. It established beyond any doubt the gulf between the politically correct guardians of Jewish tribal innocence – which ironically appears to include the ‘Palestinian Support Groups’ in the UK particularly – and those whom Atzmon frequently refers to as “humanists” and “universalists.” I am one of those and I don’t give a damn whose ox is gored – truth and justice, within the all-encompassing context of wisdom and compassion, are what we seek, not some self-serving facsimile of truth or justice on behalf of any particular constituency, even that of the Palestinians.

One thing we need to understand is that Israel was born and continues to thrive based on the mutually supporting secular ideology of Zionism and the religious theology of the Holycause. We needn’t belabor the issue of Zionism here – the subject under discussion is the Holycause. Like lawyers, we could go round and round about the historical facts of the case, but they aren’t really the problem. What matters is that tribal Jewry has managed to elevate the suffering of the Jews above what has been endured by all other identity groups. And this is the crux of it, as Atzmon constantly points out – aggressive and relentless identity politics, i.e., fascism.

The Holycause is old wine in a new bottle, a new way for Jews to celebrate and bemoan their ‘special’ fate as ‘the chosen ones,’ those singled out by the inexplicable phenomenon of antisemitism to bear the brunt of man’s inhumanity to man.

However, antisemitism is hardly inexplicable. As a Jewish writer by the name of Bernard Lazare put it in 1894 (‘L’antisémitisme, son histoire et ses causes’), “If this hostility, even aversion, had only been shown towards the Jews at one period and in one country, it would be easy to unravel the limited causes of this anger, but this race has been on the contrary an object of hatred to all the peoples among whom it has established itself. It must be therefore, since the enemies of the Jews belonged to the most diverse races, since they lived in countries very distant from each other, since they were ruled by very different laws, governed by opposite principles, since they had neither the same morals, nor the same customs, since they were animated by unlike dispositions which did not permit them to judge of anything in the same way, it must be therefore that the general cause of anti-Semitism has always resided in Israel itself and not in those who have fought against Israel.”

While I’m at it, I’d like to propose to Mr. Hart that he apply his dispassionate journalistic expertize to an interview with his friend Hajo Meyer. Ask him what the basis is for his assertion that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz and don’t pull any punches. I realize how difficult a task this would be, but truth is what we’re after, isn’t it?

Trevor:

April 13th, 2013 at 11:14 am

Hi, if you are serious about your question, I recommend you peruse the novel ‘The Holocaust Denier’. Whilst exploring various issues, it does examine how one might become a skeptic or denier of the Holocaust. More pertinent for the novel is what one then does with such knowledge gained. The issue is not really about what one believes to be true or false, but how people respond to new found beliefs. The same would apply to Holocaust adherents.

Ash:

April 15th, 2013 at 12:38 pm

I would also recommend you read the summary of Joseph Burg’s testimony at the 1988 trial: http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/falsenews.toc.html

Ash:

April 15th, 2013 at 1:22 pm

Alan, you ask: “Does it really matter HOW Jews were exterminated in Nazi concentration camps?” And then later on suggest that anyone who denies the Holocaust needs psychiatric care.

Well, it does matter. Because if you cannot show that the Jews were exterminated, then it is people like you who need psychiatric care, in this sense: what is it that allows some people to be more easily influenced/brainwashed than others?

If there is no evidence at all of gas chambers, as you suggest might be a valid opinion, then this ‘extermination’ must have used other methods. Is it your non-psychiatrically challenged opinion that the Germans back then had invented and as yet unknown method of murdering humans without leaving a trace? Is it your opinion that it is perfectly valid to accept a story involving millions of people being murdered when hardly any bodies have been found? Certainly not in industrial-scale ‘death camps’ which is the heart of the genocide story.

Here’s a nice little pamphlet that sums up some of the problems. Yes, it’s polemical and not all scholarly, but it does raise some good points. Seriously and sincerely, I think that people who keep insisting on upholding this old atrocity propaganda are the ones who are psychologically challenged. There are other examples of these Big Lies in our society which are the equivalents of superstitions and taboos of yore which we tell ourselves we have transcended, or are superior to in these more advanced times, in accordance with another one of those pseudo-scientific Big Lies, so-called ‘Theory of Evolution (by random chance!). Like that the Federal Reserve is either Federal or a Reserve and that the financial realm ultimately benefits society, that their CEO’s ‘earn’ and therefore ‘deserve’ their obscene salaries; that most of the poisons administered to cure cancer are criminally ineffective. On it goes, Lie after Lie. So given how many other Lies we are told all the time – and of course there are always dupes willing to believe those Lies who are horrified when ‘deniers’ challenge their superstitions – why do you insist that the Holocaust basically happened even after conceding that maybe the gas chamber stories are untrue?

Think about it. There is not a shred of evidence anywhere. That in itself should be enough for any reasonable, adult, unterrified person to conclude that maybe a little re-think is in order.

Pamphlet quote: “11.) There were no more than 4 million Jews living in Nazi-occupied territory. As the Nazi army advanced, the Jews fled rather than be captured. On June 30, 1965, the West German government announced that 3,375,000 Jewish “holocaust survivors” had applied for reparations. Now, if we subtract 3,375,000 from 4,000,000, that leaves 625,000 unaccounted for. If we take 625,000 and add a zero to the figure, we arrive at the fictitious and truly fantastic six million lie.”
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres9/Anglo-Sax.pdf

ontogram:

April 15th, 2013 at 7:18 pm

@Greenstein I agree with all of it except that I doubt ATzmon could be characterized as a holocaust “denier.” He’s too sharp to not know the history. Zionists behaved horribly at that time — as though to suggest that Zionism was once an acceptable, well-behaved enterprise! Zionists sold out the doomed Jewish populations in order to build the Zionist state.

Tony Greenstein:

April 15th, 2013 at 7:50 pm

I also was prepared to give Atzmon the benefit of the doubt but various comments, not least History Integrity etc. (see http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/guide-to-sayings-of-gilad-atzmon-anti.html) suggest otherwise. His praising of Paul Eisen’s overtly holocaust denial ‘Holocaust Wars’ and other similar associations suggest otherwise.

The main point to make though is that it serves no one better than the Zionists to play along with this. They love holocaust denial because it then proves just how much Israel is needed as a sanctuary.

Of course there are some fools who believe that if Israel claims its legitimacy from the holocaust (itself a lie) then if u deny the holocaust u deny Israel’s legitimacy. Problem is that the holocaust did happen, the evidence is overwhelming and as Raul Hilberg shows it literally metamorphised from the ‘euthenasia’ programme where up to 200,000 Germans died mainly by gas. The same gas vans, once the euthenasia programme had been officially ended (it hadn’t it was transferred to the concentration camps) the very same gas vas trundled along to form the first extermination camp Chelmno. And if the holocaust happened then Israel is legitimate by this ‘logic’.

Of course Zionism is never legitimate holocaust or not.

horhug:

April 16th, 2013 at 6:22 am

Tony Greenstein said:

” The evidence is in abundance – the situation reports, Bletchley code breakers …”

What “evidence” for the capital H, was discovered by the Bletchley Park codebreakers Tony ?

We have published the Bletchley Park decodes for Auschwitz at http://www.whatreallyhappened.info for all the world to see.

Please do enlighten us, just in case we have missed something …

Thank you

HORHUG

Tony Greenstein:

April 20th, 2013 at 12:23 am

I suspect Horhug that no amount of evidence would convince you. Just as the modern equivalent those opposed to climate change invent the evidence and buy corrupt scientists.

Bletchley Park broke the codes which made it very clear what was happening in Operation Barbarossa when the einsatzgruppen and einsatzkommandos killed about 1.5 million Jews and those deemed communists. The most respected holocaust historian, who wasn’t part of the Yad Vashem Zionist historians group, who deliberately use the holocaust of Jews (they don’t acknowledge the Gypsies) to justify Israel’s present barbarities. I refer to Raul Hilberg’s 3 Volume ‘The Destruction of the European Jews’ which Yad Vashem refused to publish primarily because of its criticism of the Jewish Councils, the Judenrat, who were collaborators. Let me quote from p.301.

‘In Krakow the Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD (BdS) of the Generalgourernement [Poland minus the annexed/incorporated territories – TG], SS-Oberfuhrer Schongarth, organized three small Kommandos. In the middle of July these Kommandos moved into the eastern Polish areas and, with headquarters in Lvov, Brest-Litovsk and Bialystok, respectively killed tens of thousands of Jews. fn. 34 [Order by Commander, Rear Army Group Area South, Ic (signed von Roques) 14.7.41, JOK2-2597. p.301.

I won’t quote any more from this footnote but it records all the field/situation reports in their grisly detail.

Or we could take Lucy Dawidowicz, a Zionist historian on a Round-up Report of Einsatzgruppen A to 15.10.41.

In Lithuania it records 80,311 Jews shot and 860 communists
In Latvia there were 30,025 Jews and 1,843 communists.
In Estonia there were 474 Jews and 684 communists.
In White Russia 7,620 Jews (some communists were probably considered Jews as part of the Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy.

In other words 118,430 Jews and 3,387 communists {A Holocaust Reader Appendix 8 p.96.

The holocaust did not, contrary to popular legend begin at the Wannsee Conference of January 1942. Its true beginning was with the invasion of Russia, Operation Barbarossa.

Although the point has been ignored (can’t imagine why), the true origin’s of the holocaust began with the ‘euthenasia’ programme when thousands of mentally and physically handicapped Germans were murdered. It was the speech by Bishop Galen of Munster in 1941 which brought this to the end and began the ‘wild euthenasia’. It is no accident that Christian Worth, who commanded the Brandenburg ‘euthenasia’ institute was made overall commander of these institutions and later went on to become overall commander of Sobibor Belzec and Treblinka extermination camps. He had already had plenty of experience with gassing mainly children so gassing Jews and others came quite naturally. Incidentally it was the Poles and Russians who were the first victims of Auschwitz.

I’m always happy to enlighten you, though clearly it is a waste of time, since you are a devoted believer in neo-Nazi fairy tales. Interestingly the defence at the Nuremburg Tribunal was not that there was no holocaust but that it was all Hitler’s fault! And Eichman denied nothing. Quite the contrary in an interview with Dutch Nazi journalist Hassen he boasted of it.

Evidence? How about the survivors? The thousands of personal testimonies. Not least that of the Polish Home Army (AK) resistance fighter Jan Karski who managed to get into a transit camp of the most secretive of all the extermination camps, Belzec, where he personally witnessed people crammed into railway wagons, the floors of which were covered with quicklime. The resultant gas killed them in what was by any accounts an agonising death.

Those who peddle holocaust denial are almost all neo-Nazis. That is where this lie originated. ‘Did 6 Million Really Die’ by deputy leader Richard Verall (Harwood) of the National Front. That is your real agenda. You want to deny the past in order to repeat it.

Palestinian intellectuals want nothing to do with you and your ilk because they know that but for the atrocities of Nazi Germany (which also butchered thousands of communists and ‘asocials’) then Israel would not have had its immigration fodder after the war. Without neo-Nazis like yourself then there would have been no Zionist state. That is why the Zionist leadership were unconcerned about the holocaust when it occurred and provided most of the quisling Jewish leadership.

Hajo Mayer, a survivor of Auschwitz wrote in response to a statement from Atzmon:

‘‘If, for instance, the Nazis wanted the Jews out of their Reich (Judenrein – free of Jews), or even dead, as the Zionist narrative insists, how come they marched hundreds of thousands of them back into the Reich at the end of the war?’ ‘If the Nazis ran a death factory in Auschwitz-Birkenau, why would the Jewish prisoners join them at the end of the war? ‘We should ask for some conclusive historical evidence and arguments rather than follow a religious narrative…’ ‘Why were the Jews hated? Why did European people stand up against their next-door neighbours? Why are the Jews hated in the Middle East.’

Hajo wrote to the organiser of a conference in Freiburg:

Dear Gabi,

If this text is indeed from GA’s hand, there is only one way that he and I can be on the same conference together: viz. he distances himself loud and clearly and for 100% from it at the very start of the conference or I leave the conference after having made a public statement why I do that. This is because if he means this text is valid it implies that I, who saw the smoke from the crematoria, saw the gas chambers and smelled the burnt human flesh and was forced to march with the SS to the east, am implied by his text to be a liar who put the number on his arm in order to make himself interesting. Actually I gave you a similar comment on this text quite a while ago.

I am very, very sorry that I make life difficult for you but I cannot bear to be in any way associated which such a text by a lunatic. Why does he not deny that the earth is round and that there was ever a First World War.

Actually I once published my opinion that holocaust deniers should be put into a lunatic asylum and not into prison. Because they are either full fledged lunatics or they are under influence of drugs and alcohol and need anti addiction treatment.

Sorry for making life difficult for you but there are limits to what I can tolerate.

Cordial regards Hajo
http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/holocaust-survivor-threatens-to-pull.html

Hajo, despite his age, is an indefatiguable campaigner for the Palestinians. All your efforts are achieving is helping to build Zionism. That is why the EDL, BNP and most of Europe’s far-right support the State of Israel.

Auschwitz incidentally did not start operations until about 1942 when all commands were verbal not written down or broadcast, quite deliberately. Chelmno began in December 1941 and Belzec in about March 1942. The holocaust had already begun. Not just Jews in Operation Barbarossa but about 3 million Polish intellectuals, 3 million Russians, ½ million Gypsies, countless dissidents, with 30 million Russians slated to starve to death in White Russia. It didn’t need an order, though Himmler’s speech at Posnan on 4.10.43, which I notice you also ignore, makes clear the Nazi’s intention. It evolved out of a set of mechanisms that led to war and the particular nature of Nazi ideology, unlike Italian fascism which until the Nazis took over Italy had not only been free of deportation but Italian troops had actively saved and given refuge to Jews in the areas they occupied like the South of France.

And of course when put to the test, David Irving was soundly thrashed in the libel action he himself brought against Penguin Books, whose author Deborah Lipstadt had called him a holocaust denier. He ended up admitting the existence of the Action Reinhard camps (Sobibor, Treblinka, Chelmno) confining himself to the question of whether gas was used! His books deliberately changed references and quotations to ‘prove’ his case. You can fiddle all you want with who said what to whom and whether it was 4.5 or 6 million. It matters not. The only question was whether there was a deliberate intention to annihilate the Jews. Goebbels says ‘yes’ in his Diaries and the evidence is obvious to those who are not blind.

Your views are repellent and are no help to the Palestinians and a mere reflection of the Zionists’ own Nakba Denial.

astro3:

April 28th, 2013 at 11:35 am

Without exception, I find that those advocating the ‘Holocaust’ story resort to ad hominem attacks, and have a skill at transforming debate into insult. For example, Tony Greenstein was invited by Horhug to have a look at the British Intelligence decrypts posted up on whatreallyhappened.info, taken from the WW2 German labour-camps – as he had just averred that they showed evidence for ‘the Holocaust.’ Greenstein shows absolutely no interest in doing this, but pours a torrent of abuse at Horhug: “I suspect Horhug that no amount of evidence would convince you. Just as the modern equivalent those…” etc, “Those who peddle holocaust denial are almost all neo-Nazis…. That is your real agenda. You want to deny the past in order to repeat it.” He raves on, “Without neo-Nazis like yourself then there would have been no Zionist state.”

Instead of replying, Greenstein tries to shift the debate to the Russian campaign. Excuse me, the Holocaust is generally taken to mean what happened in the German labour-camps of Europe. I’ve never heard it taken to mean what Germans did in Russia.

Concerning his claim that the decrypts show that the Germans “ killed about 1.5 million Jews and those deemed communists” in the Russian campaign, I challenge him to show where the decrypts show anything like that number of Jews so killed.

Greenstein averred in his previous post that a letter by Goering to Heydrich of August 1941 showed the decision to begin the final Solution – that was his ‘evidence.’ I invite any reader to peruse this letter here – http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/nuremberg/documents/index.php?documentdate=1945-00-00&documentid=C193-5-7&studycollectionid=&pagenumber=1
Which is crystal-clear about solving the ‘the Jewish question by emigration and evacuation’ with no trace of homicidal intent. But, despite this I am not calling Greenstein a liar. He is deluded yes and worse has a slimy technique of transforming empirical historical debate into his hate-language of Neo-Nazi ,etc.

Greenstein quotes Hajo Mayer, who in response to a couple of reasonable Qs by Gilad Atzmon declines to answer them, but instead insults him and says he can’t be in the same room – Yep, Greenstein would like that. Mayer declares he has memories of the smell of the cremation ovens – I agree, they must have had quite an odour. At Auschwitz all corpses had to be cremated, the ground was too damp to bury anyone. Then he says he saw the gas chambers – very likely, however they were for clothing not humans, they killed bugs not Jews. The big human gas chambers that Greenstein believes in so fervently are nothing but a phantom-hallucination, that have never existed on planet Earth – and will very soon exist only in the museum of yesterday’s superstitions.

Tom Usher:

April 28th, 2013 at 11:48 pm

Roger Tucker wrote, “Like lawyers, we could go round and round about the historical facts of the case, but they aren’t really the problem. What matters is that tribal Jewry has managed to elevate the suffering of the Jews above what has been endured by all other identity groups. And this is the crux of it, as Atzmon constantly points out – aggressive and relentless identity politics, i.e., fascism.”

The means by which they “elevate the suffering of the Jews above what has been endured by all other identity groups” are 1) inflating the number of Jews killed 2) exaggerating and fabricating the means and 3) ignoring the numbers of others who died.

It is simply astounding that anyone with a modicum of ethics could ignore that the number of Jews killed has been inflated, inflated not as speculation but as irrefutable, irrefutable because of a lengthy narrative built upon itself with “trust us” (including obvious perjurers as primary sources), trust our interpretation and reading of various events and documents to the exclusion of all other possible interpretations/readings as the underlying ostensible evidence of “The Holocaust” and reason why the state of Israel was allowed as late as 1948 as a racist-Jewish state on the backs of non-Jew Palestinians.

The intentional inflation of the number of Jews killed is the prime issue. Deliberate lies about methods and the intentional marginalizing of the number of others (non-Jews) who died are also parts of the issue. It started, however, with the intentional inflation. The “facts” were then progressively revealed all fixed around the 6 million.

That said, I want to distance myself from the false logic that because the Jews have been hated as an ethnic group it necessarily follows that those who hated them as such had just cause. I want to distance myself from it even though many did have just cause to hate many aspects of what is called Jewishness.

Albert Richardson:

April 29th, 2013 at 5:02 am

Tony Greenstein,

I see no reason whatsoever why Horhug should bother to respond to your over-long amalgam of red herrings and ad hominem insults.

Kevin Boyle:

April 29th, 2013 at 9:10 am

Excellent comment astro3.

astro3:

April 29th, 2013 at 11:38 am

Tom Usher has rightly commented on ‘the intentional inflation of rhe number of Jews killed’ – here is an example. In January 1945 the Soviets liberated Auschwitz and took all the ‘death books‘ with them, ie all the death-records, then in May they put out the statement that four million jews had been murdered at Auschwitz. In 1995 these death-books were finally published, and they recorded twenty-nine thousand Jews as having died at Auschwitz over nearly three years http://whatreallyhappened.info/decrypts/death_books_auschwitz.html – with more Catholics than Jews dying there. You can push that number up by various considerations, of how many Jews died at Auschwitz, but its not going to go above fifty thousand.

Tony Greenstein has averred that “The only question was whether there was a deliberate intention to annihilate the Jews. Goebbels says ‘yes’ in his Diaries and the evidence is obvious …” No document yet discovered shows a German wish, intent or plan to exterminate Jews. Always, it is a territorial plan to evacuate them Eastwards. Now that the massive Goebbels diaries have finally been published, I suggest its worth listening to someone who has read though them, eg http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2010/volume_2/number_1/goebbels_on_the_jews.php where its author concludes by agreeing with David Irving , “Nowhere do the diary’s 75,000 pages refer to an explicit order by Hitler for the murder of the Jews.” On the contrary: we find repeated and consistent reference only to expulsion and deportation.

Tony Greenstein recommends the book ‘I Cannot Forgive’ by the total liar Rudolf Vrba. His story greatly fell apart at the Totonto trial of Zundel (as Ash observes), where he was called as a crown witness? See eg http://www.whale.to/b/vrba_h.html Put on the spot as not having experienced what he claimed, he admitted to having used ‘poetic licence’ to ‘embellish’ his outrageous tale. Once asked if all claims Vrba had made about Auschwitz in the famous movie Shoa were true, Vrba replied: “I do not know. I was just an actor and I recited my text.” He told this with a sardonic smile to his Jewish friend Georg Klein (G. Klein, Pietà, Stockholm, p. 141).

Albert Richardson:

April 29th, 2013 at 10:59 pm

Tony Greenstein,

You insult Horhug and call him a neo-Nazi, among other very unpleasant accusations.

Horhug published his findings on whatreallyhappened.info. Go to that site, read the welcome page, follow links, in particular the “Thinker” photo link, which sets out the philosophical position of the site, and the link to Horhug’s own Bletchley Park articles.

Then come back here and tell us where you found a single word of neo-Nazi sympathy.

Of course, if you had troubled to do this first you would have avoided making yourself look such a fool.

David King:

April 30th, 2013 at 11:09 am

A look into the maw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ap5GgAApX0

ontogram:

May 1st, 2013 at 2:35 am

You guys are erudite but misinformed. First – “Holocaust” refers to the totality of actions taken to extermination Jews uniquely. This would include the programs of the Einsatz Gruppen in Russia as well as shootings, hangings, and gassings (of various kinds) in various places throughout the Nazi sphere.

Furthermore, the selections took place outside the camps so that those selected for extermination directly never entered the camp and were therefore never accounted for. No books would show these numbers because, from the Nazi viewpoint, these people were never in the camp and simply didn’t exist.

Tom Mysiewicz:

May 1st, 2013 at 3:09 am

Ontogram:
The “Holocaust” term was, as I understand it, based on the original (false) assertion that Jews were simply killed, pushed into ditches and burned with petrol. Brandeis Univ. scholar Abraham Leon Saccar in his “History of the Jews” relates that the precise number selected was the result of a committee decision, with “bids” ranging up to 16-million. I also understand that many Soviet commissars in USSR lands occupied by Germany were Jewish and had sent many non-Jews to the gulags and Soviet extermination camps (and overseen attrocities such as cutting off noses, burial alive, burial alive with corpse, etc.) Based on the testimony and demands of the populace, many of these Jews were apparently summarily executed by the Germans.

ontogram:

May 1st, 2013 at 4:20 am

@Tom I intended to correct someone who writes about “death books” — alleged documents that may contain some account of those admitted to the camps (and numbered) but not those sent to the gas. Certainly, there are many ways that Jews (and lots of others) died in these years, including natural causes. I think that, in common usage, however, “holocaust” refers to the untimely deaths meted out to Jews (and possible Gypsies and some Russian POWs?)by Germans in a organized fashion outside of the heat of battle. Sure, many Jews were active in the Communist administration and intelligentsia and would have been picked by locals (Kulaks?) for retribution. The “holocaust”, whatever it encompasses, was nightmarish. So also were other circumstances of war and other targets of Nazis nightmarish for many others. The “Holocaust Industry”, however, is a worse nightmare because it seeks restitution for selected parties, sometimes very excessive restitution. Furthermore, the Industry encourages the propaganda use of memory, so memories become embellished for even fabricated because, well, they serve the greater good, that being the State of Israel. Zionism is the longest active totalitarianism in history and it appears to grow stronger with each criminal act and each lie. The bizarre thing is that Zionism gives credibility to anti-semitic tropes that would otherwise be seen as outlandish. I mean here the controlling, menacing Jew, infiltrating a national body in order to take over. The hidden “power” of international Jews, i.e. Israel’s GDP is still about 19% subvention, that is, donations. Or how the Lobby controls a groveling obsequious congress. Presumably seeking to CONTRADICT anti-semitic tropes, Zionism actually gives more legs to such images. So, the solution (to anti-semitism) actually has become the problem (the reason for anti-semitism.)

Kevin Boyle:

May 1st, 2013 at 7:55 am

Zionism does not seek to contradict “anti-Semitic tropes”. It deliberately creates them. This is necessary tool in maintenance of the unique loyalty most Jews feel towards their tribe. The Rabbis have been doing this brilliantly for thousands of years…..

……..”They all hate us you know”…..

…….Watch our own ex-Chief Rabbi play this card in the clip below (after admitting he has never personally experienced anti-Semitism)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sDXeUhUpHYY

The Zionist Jewish leadership regards the Jewish rank-and-file as a pawn to be manipulated. “Anti Semitism is indispensable to us for the management of our lesser brethren,” says the author of Protocols of the Elders of Zion (9-2) a “forgery” that reads like the blueprint of the New World Order. – See more at: http://www.henrymakow.com/anti-semitism_is_the_bread_and.html#sthash.H6nmFE30.dpuf

Getting back to the word “Holocaust”. Let nobody accept official ‘definitions’ of this term. What it means to the man in the street is the industrialised extermination of a race in gas-chambers. A unique event in human history…

That provably never happened….

We know there were mass shootings on the eastern front. We must not let the Greensteins and his fellow Zionists blather us into dropping the subject or accepting that there really was a Jewish ‘holocaust’ in the generally accepted sense of the term. The Bletchley Park intercepts (and other records) demonstrate that more Catholics than Jews died in Auschwitz.
Jews were a small percentage of the total dead in WW2. Why must we remember only their suffering?

Rolf Schmid:

May 1st, 2013 at 1:26 pm

@ ontogram No. 63

Two questions:

- do You agree that we talk about the LAST of several “Holocaust`s” referred to by Jews?

- do You still believe that “millions of Jews and others” have been murdered in specially built GAS CHAMBERS for humans?

Sorry if You have already answered these questions earlier.

ontogram:

May 2nd, 2013 at 7:04 pm

@kevin boyle — Of course. I meant that Israel was presented as such a solution, not that Zionism thought of Israel as such.

Tony Greenstein:

May 3rd, 2013 at 8:50 pm

I notice that there is no reference to the T4 ‘euthenasisia’ programme. Of course there was no specific references to the exterminations, the Nazis weren’t that crass. They used circumlocutions, euphemisms – final solution,transfer, resettlement etc.

The no. of Jews in Europe was between 8 and 11 million

Many Jews did indeed escape, others were exterminated.

Vrba, a Jewish hero, who escaped despite the dogs and man alert, nonetheless succeeded in persuading a Canadian court to extradite him and a German court to convict him and others.

As I said at the beginning you will never convert a neo-Nazi who wishes to rehabilitate their chosen idols through facts, as they have none at their disposal. The only question was whether or not there was a deliberate plan to exterminate the Jews (Gypsies, mentally handicapped etc.) The answer to that is yes.

I also note that there was no reference to Himmler’s speeches of 4.10.43 in Posnan. Can’t think why not, nor why none of those quilty used denial of the holocaust as a defence. The master race blamed each other.

There is no better way to support Zionism than to deny the holocaust so congratulations and as my first prediction was correct there is no point in continuing the conversation.

astro3:

May 9th, 2013 at 2:25 pm

Ontogram is giving the rather mad view that
“Furthermore, the selections took place outside the camps so that those selected for extermination directly never entered the camp and were therefore never accounted for. No books would show these numbers because, from the Nazi viewpoint, these people were never in the camp and simply didn’t exist”
Righto, so how did they get into the camps? What would be the point of the meticulous counting every day of camp personell (http://www.whatreallyhappened.info/decrypts/ww2decrypts.html) and daily counting of deaths in the death-books of Auschwitz, if huge numbers of these phantom-jews were all coming in uncounted? And how do you presume to know that vast numbers of them were being ‘selected’ outside the camp before being gassed? From Hollywood movies I guess.
There is ‘no counting’ of all these Jews coming in, I guess for the same reason that no-one saw piles of gassed Jews afterwards, or that no-one today can see anything resembling a historic human gas-chamber in the WW2 camps.
We also have the massive Arolsen Archive, which recorded deaths for each German WW2 camp, (compiled by the International Red Cross, it’s now called the International Tracing service)and their totals appear fairly compatible with these other primary-sources I’ve mentioned.
My advice is, Ontogram, stop imagining things in history, where you then have to explain why you have no evidence for their having happened. Use Occam’s Razor. You can find no evidence for the mass gassing of Jews for the simple reason that it never happened. It was just WW2 atrocity propaganda and can we now leave it in the past and move on?

Kevin Boyle:

May 12th, 2013 at 10:10 am

Thank you astro3. Simple, sensible and to the point.

Peaceandtruthlover:

May 12th, 2013 at 5:42 pm

Please watch this video with English subtitles…
http://youtu.be/5G7Tv4l8G7A
I appreciate both sides of the argument for as long as it has the good and benefit of all of humanity equal in mind.

ontogram:

May 12th, 2013 at 8:19 pm

@astro I am only saying the official records are not sufficient for the reasons I cited. The razor cuts both ways, however: There are many witnesses and much testimony about these atrocities. The simplest explanation may be to accept that some large scale killing took place. Maybe not as pictured by the Zionist/Jewish press, but something unique.

Albert Richardson:

May 12th, 2013 at 8:33 pm

@ontogram
Some large-scale killing may have taken place. It would hardly be a surprise in the context of the most brutal war in history, where large-scale killing was widespread.

But I am not prepared to assume this without evidence (and the witness testimony is no better for Auschwitz than for all the camps in Germany where we now know it was not true), nor to concede some kind of exceptionalism that differentiates between this and mass killings by other participants.

Your “simplest explanation” is mere whistling in the dark unless supported by material and documentary evidence.

Tony Greenstein:

May 13th, 2013 at 12:22 am

As I said at the beginning nothing will convince a flat earther or a holocaust denier. No mention still of the T4 programme or the intention of Hitler to murder by starvation 30m Russians in White Russia or the annihilation of the Polish intelligentsia when the Nazis boots landed (3m died).

It’s well known why most inmates were never counted because only those selected for work, 10%, were branded and numbered. Yes it must have been a terrible smell massacring millions and burning their bodies.

The red herring is to aver that because the Zionists use the holocaust for their purposes it didn’t happen whereas they weren’t interested at the time, hence Vrba.

The attack on Hajo Mayer is disgraceful but what has come to expect. I suspect if any one of those smart asses went througn what he did their views would have been much different.

Western imperialism butchered millions and British neo-Nazis of wich there are a few here justified such conquests. The difference was the intent to eliminate a whole ‘race’ inc. the gypsies (also not mentioned!).

Those who deny the holocaust do the work of the Zionists, hence why we expelled them from Palestine Solidarity Campaign. Let’s see how far Paul Eisen’s HD Deir Yassin Remembered gets. Not very far I think.

Albert Richardson:

May 13th, 2013 at 9:16 am

@Tony Greenstein

Could we have fewer ad hominems and straw men, and just a teensy weensy bit of supporting evidence for your wild claims, please? (Not on T4. No one disputes that.)

Kevin Boyle:

May 13th, 2013 at 9:25 am

Mr Greenstein,

Straw man arguments again.

People on this thread are arguing that there never existed human gas chambers in Auschwitz or any other camp. THIS is the (fictional) event that defines ‘The Holocaust’ in the minds of most people. This is the major lie that justifies the Jewish exceptionalism that you defend.

It is also interesting that you bang on about Nazi evil at every opportunity but have little to say about the (Jewish-led) Soviet evil that was responsible for far more murders.

Hitler, it seems, must continue to play the role of Devil in the public mind because he opposed the international Zionist agenda…….although it is now easy to see that he was, in the bigger picture, Zionism’s greatest friend and ally.

How did that happen?

astro3:

May 13th, 2013 at 10:09 am

Mr Greenstein seems beyond any form of reason or debate. He is clearly proud of getting the Palestine Solidarity Campaign to expel any alleged H-D er. That will mean that any intelligent, discerning members get chucked out. No wonder they don’t like listening to Gilad Atzman.

Mr Ontogram alludes to ’”death books” — alleged documents that may contain some account of those admitted to the camps (and numbered) but not those sent to the gas.’ Sir, these were the total of authentic records of Auschwitz deaths which the Soviets captured when they liberated the camp. All of the very-thorough death-records in four dozen volumes. They record more Catholics than Jews dying, and they do show the terrific peak in mortality in the summer of ’42 when the great typhus epidemic hit the camps. But, you can’t just dismiss these records because they don’t show as many dead as you would like.

No-one can show that the total Jewish deaths in WW2 were larger than one would expect from their % in the European population, in a war where 60 million died.

But, if anyone were to try and reason with Greenstein – probably unwise (‘massacring millions and burning their bodies’), one would have to allude to the intact coke records: for some two years the total coke consumed in the cremation-furnaces at Auschwitz is known, about 600 tons. The amount those furnaces needed to cremate a corpse is known, and that puts a ceiling on the total corpses that can have been burnt. It doesn’t allow anything like the numbers he wants. Exterminists like Greenstein always want to give supernatural powers to the wicked Nazis, whereby they could gas and burn millions without leaving a trace. In fact, the gas chambers that actually existed were normal hygiene technology.

Ontogram, you seem a reasonable chap. Why not read a book on revisionism? Eg Rudolf’s ‘Lectures on the Holocaust’ (http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/loth/) The ‘separations’ you allude to took place at Birkenau: Auschwitz was a hard-working labour camp whose inmates had to trudge out every morning to local arms –munitions factories. But a lot of the people arriving there were too frail or ill or old to be capable of that. Checkout the age-distribution of deaths there, they don’t show any peak for very young or old persons: http://www.whatreallyhappened.info/decrypts/Death_Certs_IMH_Auschwitz_Charts.html

Ash:

May 13th, 2013 at 12:56 pm

From what I can tell, the holocaustians here seem to now be defending a position that goes something like this: ‘we will concede that it is unlikely that mass, industrial-scale gassings took place as earlier described and concede that many exaggerations and falsehoods have been promulgated, but insist that anyone who denies the overall narrative (which cannot be defined but now seems to be evolving into what happened on the Eastern front rather than in the concentration camps) is clearly mad.

Or to put it more simply: ‘even though I cannot provide a clear, consistent narrative, anyone who disagrees with the latest official version is clearly insane.’

Or even more simply: pure ad-hominem!

Actually, there is almost nothing there for deniers to deny. Poor Mr. Greenstein can barely thread his sentences together, making his English look more and more like a second language.

Which perhaps it is…

Tom Mysiewicz:

May 13th, 2013 at 4:30 pm

Tony:

There is one difference you neglect between a “flat earther” and a “holo denier”–we can ascertain through various scientific proofs that the earth is elipsoid, not flat. Thus, we do not have to jail and persecute “tin-foil haters” who believe otherwise. As for the “holo denier”–why do we have to jail and persecute him if the truth is so self evident? I, for one, assume the person using force to crush an idea has something to hide.

ontogram:

May 13th, 2013 at 5:36 pm

Richardson — You make two disconnected points. First, there is no evidence of targeted mass killing of Jews in such numbers (I think) and, second, that there is no distinction between one mass murder and another. It is as though, with the second, you accept the holocaust but not it’s “uniqueness.” I quite agree. It was only unique for the Jewish people but somehow that memory has become a global cause and memory and this is unfortunate as it serves Zionism and distorts the truth, especially the truths about other mass murders, including in our own time. Somehow, the real holocaust got capitalized (Holocaust) and capitalized upon by Zionist groups and became a unique world conscious event when it really was the same old. Even so, such a mass murder almost certainly did take place and did involve mass shootings and various forms of gas killing. I am not an historian and do not have “evidence” other than secondary sources, but there do seem to be German docs listing numbers killed here and there, at least during Einsatzgruppen campaign.

For the Jewish people, these murders are an overriding historical event. For the rest of the world, it is, as it should be, ANOTHER instance of cruelty born of racism and nationalism, exactly the thing that calls itself “Israel.” I recommend not spending energy denying the Holocaust and rather spending time putting it in perspective and defanging the murderous Zionist montster. That’s my view.

Rolf Schmid:

May 15th, 2013 at 11:27 am

@comment no. 70 et al of poor Mr. Greenstein`s,
because his “Jewish hero Vrba” is one of the greatest liars on both HC and GC meanwhile known.

Referring to a “witness” like him proofs the lack of knowledge OR respectability!

Ash:

May 15th, 2013 at 11:30 am

The ‘hero’ Vrba didn’t do so well in Court, btw the first time since the war that eyewitnesses were cross examined thoroughly by a defense lawyer:
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/engl/vrba1.html

Hilberg also had a rough time: http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/09hilberg.html

I don’t know what happened 70 years ago, but at this point I know for certain that much of what has been presented as truth or fact is based on lies or shared fantasy – I suspect mainly the latter. People simply believe the story for a whole variety of reasons, but principally because it has become part of the core narrative shaping the world order, and thus our perceived civic reality sphere, the past few decades when Holocaustianity has really gathered steam.

Even if it is all true as its proponents like to believe (and of course we all know that’s impossible which is why the story keeps changing from decade to decade), all the many lies told in sworn depositions have gone unpunished, the falsely murdered German victims of such mock trials unacknowledged, their offspring still are taught today false things about what their grandparents and ancestors did, descendants of the Allies are not told what we did in the war which was so atrocious and so on and so on.

Mr. Greenstein seems to think that all that matters is that by challenging WW II atrocity propaganda we are helping Zionists. There is more to the world than Jewish concerns even though they do a good job of skewing much of history to their own narcissistic point of view.

Frankly, I blame all of ‘us’ for letting that happen. Any society which lets a self-separating sub-group come in and gradually take over lacks a certain moral and civic fibre or integrity. The exploitation, though painful, will eventually cause dysfunction at which point we will have a chance to do a better job next time. But meanwhile, it could get very bloody as they rule the roost, as happened with French and Russian revolutions, for example, which in the larger scheme of things is not so very long ago, especially the latter given the mass murders – perpetrated principally by Jews – only ended along with the end of WW II, a few years after the so-called Holocaust is supposed to have ended.

I don’t believe a word that official Jewish spokespersons – like Greenstein – say. Ever. If there is solid evidence, fine. But without it – and there hardly ever is, I won’t believe a word any of these wicked lying crooks say!

ontogram:

May 25th, 2013 at 11:31 pm

Ash — I can go part way with you. I agree that Jews identify themselves as “separate,” apart from, even “chosen.” I agree that that the continuation of this racial self-identifying supremacism is very bad and cannot continue and that it is warping history. Jewish power is strongly determining the actions of the chief political actor in the world. I don’t know to what extent the radical revolutions of the past were prompted and promoted by Jews. Atzmon recently indicated that research demonstrates that the Republican cause in the Spanish Civil War was heavily populated with Jews, mostly foreign, e.g. the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. I know about Jewish influence in the Russian Revolution, but nothing on the extent. I also agree that Greenstein may well be defending the official narrative as a Jew and not as an intellectual, although I think his work is very good. I see this kind of supremacism in, say, Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) and other “Jewish” organizations aiming to co-opt true radicalism and the Palestinian cause, for example. JVP recently excommunicated Greta Berlin for alleged aiding and abetting of “anti-semitism.” This was a red flag for me — what does “anti-semitism” have to do with the cause of Palestine. It is a just cause without any reference to anti-semitism or to race at all. So, this is an unsavory display of Jewish supremacism.

Greenstein’s defense of the basic holocaust narrative (even my own) may or may not reflect such supremacism. I can’t say. Greenstein has articulated himself so well in other venues and I respect him much. I too am nobody to push around. Perhaps Greenstein and I both instinctively rise to the defense. Let me say: I truly believe that some vicious genocide took place against Jews, in particular, both in the camps and through mass shootings. That much is true.

In any case, Jews have the reins of power now and this is terrible for both Jews and Gentiles (I am Jewish). The case of Israel has been distorted so badly that it will never ever inhabit the real world of nations. It is now permanently “special” and that can mean some bad things. I personally loath guys like Richard Perle and Wolfowicz and those other neo-con assholes. They are virtually everything I dislike about Jewishness, period.

Ash:

May 26th, 2013 at 5:42 pm

Onto, this thread sparked an renewed interest in this topic for me personally and have been corresponding with Tucker the past few weeks and sharing an emerging theory which goes something like this: assuming that Sands ‘invention of J history and people’ is somewhat accurate in positing that most of the history and religion is false, and given that Atzmon’s focus on the J identity issue being essentially a choice on some level which also means that it is non-existent on another level (the subject of Sands last book I gather), it would seem that much of what we have learned of J identity and history is largely based on myth/fiction.

Btw, I am partly Jewish but in a very modern way: only after my grandfather died did any of his family members learn of his Jewish ancestry since he chose never to tell his wife or only child, my mother, of it. We learned after his death. And secrecy being somewhat his legacy, my mother never told me until twenty years later that he was the son of a rabbi, making me a rabbi’s great grandson. Still, that makes me an ultra-modern type of part-Jew: one whose J ancestor thoroughly assimilated to the point that I only found out about by accident. Anyway…

What I am thinking is that if most of the received history is mainly false, if there is no hard core racial or geographic origin of the J people, and also if it is still true to say – as I believe – that there definitely are identifiable Jewish traits and Jewish culture, one can say – buddhist style – the Jewishness both exists and does not exist. If so, what is it?

On the outer, historical level, I am beginning to believe that what we have is the first post-flood modern, urban tribe, or network. Not based on place but rather function and role, and especially at the beginning (probably) on trade of goods and skills between various urban zones. 95% of all people before this century, stayed put. Traders move themselves and their wares from place to place. As such, they have a radically different view of selfhood and life journey than most other people. Moreover, relationships with clients are much more a question of numbers (profit/loss) than heart-related.

In short, they are a modern, non place-based, and non-blood based, tribe. Or using more modern language: a network. As such, they are by definition and function different from the populations they function in. And as a distinct group, they lend themselves to being used by local leadership for things like tax collection, usury etc. which the native population either is not allowed to do (so they can be well controlled) or the leaders don’t want it public knowledge what they are up to, and so on and so forth.

Bottom line: they are partly a creation of the modern world, and also any nefarious lineages in there are also a creation of the larger society (corrupt monarchs, nobility, lazy middle class, complacent peasants etc. etc.) rather than they are a highly self-organised destructive conspiratorial hostile wing bent on destroying.

That can emerge as part of their mentality, but again, if any group gets organised and hostile, just as with a bacterial or other infection in the body, they can only become deadly to the host, so to speak, when that host’s immune system is already compromised. If a society lacks internal virtue or strength (same thing), then negative elements will rise.

I don’t wish to imply that the J factor in our society is necessarily negative. But there are various negative aspects that keep coming up century after century, and it has to do with the fact that they are a ubiquitous but not native population and so they end up (many but of course not all of them) getting involved in things like trade, finance, tax collection etc. which in turn tend to end up over-exploiting native populations until the society as a whole becomes dysfunctional due to over-exuberance in the ‘corruption class’.

J’s get blamed for this again and again. This is partly correct. But they don’t create the corruption, they are a manifestation of corruption in society that depends upon corrupt financial systems and tax collection etc. It was corrupt tax collection, for example, that necessitated the creation of the Magna Carta, whose original clauses 10 & 11 specifically restricted the scope of Jewish financiers (acting under King John with his protection) to sieze the property of nobles in various ways. MC didn’t work in the long run (it was revised without teeth in 1216) and so in the 1290′s Jews were banned from England.

This has nothing to do with antisemitism, rather systemic exploitation of the ruling classes over those they rule, and using transient, non-native trading populations (aka Jews) as their functionaries. Over time, they have blood ties and their own internal culture, religion, rituals, stories etc., but it is not true to think of them as a typical people.

So they are special after all, even though they don’t exist! ‘Chosen (special/different) of God (not of this immediate world/nation/place’ indeed!

Wikispooks:

May 27th, 2013 at 12:13 pm

@Ash 17:42

Thanks for some good, thought-provoking stuff here and in previous comments.

I’d like to invite you and other J-sceptical (ie ‘the official narrative is absurd and always a cover for a hidden agenda’) contributers to consider involvement with Wikispooks. It’s 3 years old now; maintains systematic publicly downloadable backups; and could do with more contributors. It especially needs much work to counter the systematic pro-Zionist/Judaic biases of Wikipedia.

Commenting on blogs – or even maintaining one’s own – has its attractions, but it seems to me that, to build a viable, accessible, long-term corpus of fundamentally establishment-sceptic information requires something more wikipedia-like – but with a fundamentally different editorial policy. That is what Wikispooks is aiming at.

The Nazi holocaust: My response to my critics | Veterans News Now:

May 17th, 2017 at 5:12 am

[…] Veterans Today who criticized, ridiculed and condemned me for what I wrote in my last two posts (WANTED – A psychiatric diagnosis of Nazi holocaust denial, which was a follow-up to Understanding the real significance TODAY of the Nazi holocaust), I quote […]

Catherine:

July 12th, 2017 at 12:18 pm

I agree. There is something wrong with them. But it’s politically incorrect to say that.

Some people are truly, authentically anti-Semitic. The way some people are pro-Trump.

I’ve known people who simply sneer at Jews. Being a NYer, it rattles me when I go out of town and hear some of those epithets tossed into conversations and jokes. I even had a boyfriend from Iran who replied, when I asked him how he felt about the Holocaust, “It never happened.” One of your commenters here says he’s never known anyone like that. I’ve known plenty. Present them w/ facts and you hit a brick wall. There’s no talking to these Holocaust deniers about people of the Jewish faith.

And yet, there are these OTHER people … who are completely irrational, in the same way some Trump adoring citizens are completely irrational.

I have a friend who is wealthy and diagnosed w/ schizophrenia and psychosis. She believes her Jewish doctor tried to kill her, and that a legitimate lawsuit involving her personal injury is being buried by people w/names like Schneiderman, Cohen, Silverman … and a hospital known until recently as L.I. Jewish Hospital. Naturally, she’s gone thru lawyers who freak out when she blurts out these things.

She’s not anti-Semitic. She has friends who are Jewish. She trusts and gets help from people who are Jewish. She closes down when I try to temper her communications w/people who will never understand that she isn’t a Nazi. But I know her well. And they don’t.

There should be a DSM diagnosis for this. It’s definitely a hiccup in the brain that should be recognized as mental impairment. Meantime, this woman needs a lawyer, and no one will touch her case w/ a 10 foot pole, anymore.

Great to read this. Maybe it will go somewhere someday.